Medeshi Sept 15, 2008What do you think is the most urgent problem facing Egyptian society at the moment?
I believe that the most urgent problem is water. Because tomorrow Ethiopia may begin using the source of the Nile — as they need it for irrigation — or Kenya, which is one-third desert. All those countries will sooner or later need to use the Nile water, and then you will have a problem of water in this country. When I was Minister of Foreign Affairs I tried, without success, to provoke an interest in the government. I said look what happened with the Danube, what happened in Asia with the Mekong. I even sent the Minister of Irrigation to visit the Mekong. I failed.
But do you think that is because people are more worried about poverty?
Yes, people are interested in poverty, money, overpopulation, the problem of big cities, etc. But the real problem for me is water. Again, the confrontation with Israel, this was the main problem. The Palestinians, this is the main problem. And for me the real problem is the problem of the Nile, because there is no rain in this country. Unless in the next 20 years we have a new invention to produce rain.
How would you describe the human rights situation in Egypt now?
I believe we are at the beginning of a very long road. It will take time. You cannot improve human rights in two or four years. A good doctor takes 20 years of experience, so what about the culture of human rights in a country in which 30 percent of the population is illiterate and such other percent is half literate. So it will take time.
I believe that the most urgent problem is water. Because tomorrow Ethiopia may begin using the source of the Nile — as they need it for irrigation — or Kenya, which is one-third desert. All those countries will sooner or later need to use the Nile water, and then you will have a problem of water in this country. When I was Minister of Foreign Affairs I tried, without success, to provoke an interest in the government. I said look what happened with the Danube, what happened in Asia with the Mekong. I even sent the Minister of Irrigation to visit the Mekong. I failed.
But do you think that is because people are more worried about poverty?
Yes, people are interested in poverty, money, overpopulation, the problem of big cities, etc. But the real problem for me is water. Again, the confrontation with Israel, this was the main problem. The Palestinians, this is the main problem. And for me the real problem is the problem of the Nile, because there is no rain in this country. Unless in the next 20 years we have a new invention to produce rain.
How would you describe the human rights situation in Egypt now?
I believe we are at the beginning of a very long road. It will take time. You cannot improve human rights in two or four years. A good doctor takes 20 years of experience, so what about the culture of human rights in a country in which 30 percent of the population is illiterate and such other percent is half literate. So it will take time.
Do you think literacy is the problem?
I believe that the problem is that if you are confronted with poverty, the real problem is poverty. Again, it is one part of the economic and social rights that is more important than political rights. The trend is to pay attention to political rights, that offering political rights and offering democratization will help development.
I participated for three years in a symposium about the relationship between democracy and development. The theory is that if you want development you need democracy. Again, democracy is related to the protection of human rights.
I believe that the problem is that if you are confronted with poverty, the real problem is poverty. Again, it is one part of the economic and social rights that is more important than political rights. The trend is to pay attention to political rights, that offering political rights and offering democratization will help development.
I participated for three years in a symposium about the relationship between democracy and development. The theory is that if you want development you need democracy. Again, democracy is related to the protection of human rights.
So human rights, democracy, development, what is first?
There is not a global solution for every country; each country has its own problems. Certain countries can afford to take part of just an elite, and 90 percent of the population will be born in the streets and die in the streets. Other countries cannot do this. So the problem will not be the same in each country.
I was there at a conference in Khartoum in 1978 or ‘79. At three in the morning you have a dispute between Leopold Senghor [ex-president of Senegal] defending human rights and [another participant] defending the people’s rights. And the African Convention was people and human rights.
In Africa they say look, the right of the tribe is more important, the average African feels more secure in his own tribe. Even human rights change: Asian tradition is something, African tradition is something else.
There is not a global solution for every country; each country has its own problems. Certain countries can afford to take part of just an elite, and 90 percent of the population will be born in the streets and die in the streets. Other countries cannot do this. So the problem will not be the same in each country.
I was there at a conference in Khartoum in 1978 or ‘79. At three in the morning you have a dispute between Leopold Senghor [ex-president of Senegal] defending human rights and [another participant] defending the people’s rights. And the African Convention was people and human rights.
In Africa they say look, the right of the tribe is more important, the average African feels more secure in his own tribe. Even human rights change: Asian tradition is something, African tradition is something else.
What is the role of the National Council for Human Rights in this?
We are trying first of all to promote human rights. We are trying to create an education of human rights, a culture of human rights, which will help us to capture the interest of the public, because if you do not capture the interest of the public in solving the problems of the country, then you will not be able to solve the problems.
We have arranged to receive complaints. The first year we had 7,000 complaints and 200 answered from the government. Now we have more answered from the government. So the public feels that this organization can help them.
The fact that every day in the newspaper we see the words ‘human rights’ is already a step. The fact that we are communicating with the other human rights organizations — we are establishing a network, we help each other.
The fact that we have a meeting of the Arab commissions of human rights every year: Even in a country without a commission of human rights, we send the man in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, or the Ministry of Justice dealing with the problem of human rights, and this may encourage him to create his own commission.
The fact that if there is a commission of human rights in Kenya or France we will send somebody — this again will help the public accept that an American commission or a European commission can come and ask what we are doing about human rights in Egypt. Otherwise they’ll say, “Oh, this is a foreign intervention, this is new imperialism.” No, because we are allowed to do the same thing.
We are trying first of all to promote human rights. We are trying to create an education of human rights, a culture of human rights, which will help us to capture the interest of the public, because if you do not capture the interest of the public in solving the problems of the country, then you will not be able to solve the problems.
We have arranged to receive complaints. The first year we had 7,000 complaints and 200 answered from the government. Now we have more answered from the government. So the public feels that this organization can help them.
The fact that every day in the newspaper we see the words ‘human rights’ is already a step. The fact that we are communicating with the other human rights organizations — we are establishing a network, we help each other.
The fact that we have a meeting of the Arab commissions of human rights every year: Even in a country without a commission of human rights, we send the man in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, or the Ministry of Justice dealing with the problem of human rights, and this may encourage him to create his own commission.
The fact that if there is a commission of human rights in Kenya or France we will send somebody — this again will help the public accept that an American commission or a European commission can come and ask what we are doing about human rights in Egypt. Otherwise they’ll say, “Oh, this is a foreign intervention, this is new imperialism.” No, because we are allowed to do the same thing.
Do you think the fact that the Centre is attached to the government hurts its credibility?
Certain members of the government understand that this will help them, that they need the participation of the public if you want real reform, if you want economic progress. But passivity is an obstacle to any kind of reform.
As an organization as such, I am a weak organization, so I need the support of other organizations. The fact that I discuss issues with the Jordanian commission of human rights — I’m supporting the Jordanian and the Jordanian is supporting me.
The fact that you’ll have a meeting in Cairo on December 1 for the sixtieth anniversary of the declaration of human rights — we have invited all the national commissions of Africa and the Arab world, plus UNESCO, the High Commissioner of Human Rights in Geneva etc. — again, creates a kind of mobilization of the public opinion.
I agree you have people saying this means nothing, you are doing nothing, it’s too late, look at the violations every day. Yes, certainly, but this is why we exist. This is why we are trying to find a solution to this problem.
Certain members of the government understand that this will help them, that they need the participation of the public if you want real reform, if you want economic progress. But passivity is an obstacle to any kind of reform.
As an organization as such, I am a weak organization, so I need the support of other organizations. The fact that I discuss issues with the Jordanian commission of human rights — I’m supporting the Jordanian and the Jordanian is supporting me.
The fact that you’ll have a meeting in Cairo on December 1 for the sixtieth anniversary of the declaration of human rights — we have invited all the national commissions of Africa and the Arab world, plus UNESCO, the High Commissioner of Human Rights in Geneva etc. — again, creates a kind of mobilization of the public opinion.
I agree you have people saying this means nothing, you are doing nothing, it’s too late, look at the violations every day. Yes, certainly, but this is why we exist. This is why we are trying to find a solution to this problem.
But for the man on the street, looking at an organization so close to the government, wouldn’t he say that it is just the government putting a face on itself?
No, because we have 20 other non-governmental organizations that at the beginning were very suspicious of this organization, and we had to convince them that we wanted to cooperate with them. Because we need them: Through our solidarity we will be able to do something.
Again, we are at the beginning of a very long road. New technology makes us in a hurry, we want to solve everything in a few hours. This cannot be solved in a few hours. It is like an education, from strong children becoming mature people, it will take 40 years, 50 years.
No, because we have 20 other non-governmental organizations that at the beginning were very suspicious of this organization, and we had to convince them that we wanted to cooperate with them. Because we need them: Through our solidarity we will be able to do something.
Again, we are at the beginning of a very long road. New technology makes us in a hurry, we want to solve everything in a few hours. This cannot be solved in a few hours. It is like an education, from strong children becoming mature people, it will take 40 years, 50 years.
What’s your view about the emergency law extension?
We have already said that we are against the extension of the emergency law. We believe that through normalization it will help us [] But again, I was the man who presided over [the World Conference on Human Rights] in Vienna in 1993.
The government was very suspicious of the commission, so to overcome this suspicion we said the commission will have an advisory role only. So again, our role is very limited. We come and advise the government. We may try to obtain the support of public opinion, but you have no real power.
We have already said that we are against the extension of the emergency law. We believe that through normalization it will help us [] But again, I was the man who presided over [the World Conference on Human Rights] in Vienna in 1993.
The government was very suspicious of the commission, so to overcome this suspicion we said the commission will have an advisory role only. So again, our role is very limited. We come and advise the government. We may try to obtain the support of public opinion, but you have no real power.
Are you concerned about the new anti-terrorism legislation?
We have not seen it, we have to wait. There are so many rumors.
It is not a question of being afraid. You see, what’s important is the way the different rules will be applied. And very often the rules are not respected. I will put it differently: It is more a question of education.
We have not seen it, we have to wait. There are so many rumors.
It is not a question of being afraid. You see, what’s important is the way the different rules will be applied. And very often the rules are not respected. I will put it differently: It is more a question of education.
Of the government or of the people?
Of everybody, the government and the people. The government represents the people, the government is coming from the people. It is a question of culture. Until we will be able to promote the culture of human rights, it will take time.
Of everybody, the government and the people. The government represents the people, the government is coming from the people. It is a question of culture. Until we will be able to promote the culture of human rights, it will take time.
Do you see people’s lives getting better in Egypt?
I believe that the problem is the demographic explosion. When I began to teach at Cairo University we had 200 students, now we have 20,000 students. Cairo [had a population of] 1 million. I had the same apartment in Giza and I was able to go from the apartment to Al Ahram in five minutes; now it takes me one and a half hours. Okay, you cannot compare this with 20 years ago, 50 years ago.
So the situation will be more complicated because one, you have a problem of water, and two, 80 million are concentrated in five percent of the territory, the Nile valley. We may use the coast but it will take 10 years. We may find a way to obtain water to cultivate the desert, but it will not be easy.
I believe that the problem is the demographic explosion. When I began to teach at Cairo University we had 200 students, now we have 20,000 students. Cairo [had a population of] 1 million. I had the same apartment in Giza and I was able to go from the apartment to Al Ahram in five minutes; now it takes me one and a half hours. Okay, you cannot compare this with 20 years ago, 50 years ago.
So the situation will be more complicated because one, you have a problem of water, and two, 80 million are concentrated in five percent of the territory, the Nile valley. We may use the coast but it will take 10 years. We may find a way to obtain water to cultivate the desert, but it will not be easy.
Do you think there will be democracy in Egypt?
I believe there is democracy. Look what happens in the newspapers: We are insulted everyday — this never happens in any English or French newspaper. This is an excess of democracy.
I agree this is a very special democracy, but again democracy changes from one country to another. I spent many years of my life traveling in Africa. Democracy in Africa is how the 50 different tribes will be represented in the cabinet. Who will be the minister of foreign affairs, will they be a Christian, will they be a Muslim, will they be somebody who believes in African religion? et
I believe there is democracy. Look what happens in the newspapers: We are insulted everyday — this never happens in any English or French newspaper. This is an excess of democracy.
I agree this is a very special democracy, but again democracy changes from one country to another. I spent many years of my life traveling in Africa. Democracy in Africa is how the 50 different tribes will be represented in the cabinet. Who will be the minister of foreign affairs, will they be a Christian, will they be a Muslim, will they be somebody who believes in African religion? et
